JR ↑ on Farcaster

Colton Dillion 🃏🎩 pfp

Colton Dillion 🃏🎩

If you wanted to get really crazy you could do quadratic tipping We've already talked about accumulating allowances over a 2-7 day window, so what if repeat tips to the same account within that time window were also applied quadratically, ie every unit tipped after the first unit eats 2n-1 marginal units of allowance

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JR ↑ pfp

Def helps to auto-reduce the damage farming accounts can do similar to max tipping among accounts - except they grow their tipping circle & you will need to up your game once again. Hence, on top of such mechanisms I still value community to control itself and weed out bad parties. This doesn’t need to be stasi 2.0 but can be a valuable job getting some of the fake tips similar to “pro” tippers applying for delegations to tip in channels, to tip for specific content - which is easy to track :)

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Colton Dillion 🃏🎩 pfp

Colton Dillion 🃏🎩

I totally agree, I've pitched a few downvote mechanics or vouching mechanics, but there's a hard line to play. People don't like the negativity of downvotes, and if you want to make people vouch for each other, the rules can't be too complicated. Have any ideas to address those two problems?

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dusan pfp

vouch is top-down, i think it's too restrictive. downvote seems too generic - i think people consider downvote weaker than report and are afraid it might be used too liberally. why not openrank-based farming suspicion reporting? with strict rules - it's better to let some of the farming pass than to restrict honest tippers. (think "community notes" for degen)

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Colton Dillion 🃏🎩 pfp

Colton Dillion 🃏🎩

What do you think the strict rules should be? I like the idea of crowdsourcing 'community notes'

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dusan pfp

i might've used a wrong word - i wanted to say "clear" rather than "strict". it's nontrivial to come up with them right away, but we should start with something, and update every season until we converge to something that works (the rule of thumb is the fewer rules the better). imo the only rule necessary is "no farming", but it obviously has to come with "pattern library" so people know what not to do and degen team knows what to punish. what i had in mind would be a system consisting of 2 roles: - police (for lack of a better term) - judges 1/2

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dusan pfp

virtually anyone could police - i.e. report tipping casts, but only few could judge and take action (issue warnings, freeze tipping, ban). ideally both could come with some kind of reputation: staking seems obvious, but it can collide with what we want to prevent - whale farmers, who, by definition have large stakes. openrank could work here though. ideally the weight of the vote (for both roles) should be determined not only by the rank itself, but also by a metric dependent on the voters' distance in the network (to prevent coordinated action by a cluster of highly ranked participants). plus all negative actions should be "undoable" in a similar manner (report + judge). ultimately, i believe we can start with a simpler system that is forgiving, but makes an example of some of the obvious malicious actors. 2/2

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Colton Dillion 🃏🎩 pfp

Colton Dillion 🃏🎩

Thanks, I like the idea of graph distance being a counterweight on coordinated moderation. For now we're starting with a mod team that has to get a quorum of downvotes to invalidate tips on a post, and if that goes well we'll invest more time in making the system more fair and distributed. 69 $DEGEN

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dusan pfp

🤞side note: current system will probably result in a big shift in openrank/scs/powerbadge ranking for farmers given that they'll receive quite a lot of "engagement" from big accounts.

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JR ↑ pfp

When you look at the replies, you'll also see that no one agrees on which tips should not be modded - even the most obvious tips for tips & groups that were literally created to farm (due to most people being active there) hope you guys can steer this in the right direction. https://warpcast.com/wake.eth/0xd798c1e7

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wake pfp

It's a downvote. No steering; let the meat computer process.

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JR ↑ pfp

what's the sense of a downvoting/modding system if there is no agreement among mods what is fair game and what not? I get you don't want this to be decided top-down but I believe it doesn't hurt if someone comes out and says "tip 4 tip", "posting an allocation pic" as seen in xyz groups doesn't add value and should be modded. I'd even like to hear from @dwr.eth what (tipping) content is pure spam and would be better not to get any tips, visibility on the timeline.

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wake pfp

There is adequate agreement among mods for the obvious fraud. That's sufficient. Otherwise there is no future-proof definition for tipping engagement that will stay fitted to our changing world. Dialectic and minimal consensus is enough to take action when we need to (imo).

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Colton Dillion 🃏🎩 pfp

Colton Dillion 🃏🎩

In the end, my guiding light is "will this behavior continue to exist once all the DEGEN has been distributed?" I find it hard to believe that /tip4tip or /paidgroup will continue to cycle tips when they're not using house money. While we don't want to eliminate this behavior, especially where it involves roleplay or an entry point to more meaningful relationships, we absolutely should modify the incentive structure to prefer active curation and novel contributions

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Pichi pfp

Would love @karbonbased take on this. I have a stub and loved when paidgroup started. The feed is way different these days but I think it’s in response to the PVP set up of Season 6 so the more guidance from all sides, the better.

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karbon 🐺🦊🧾 pfp

karbon 🐺🦊🧾

Paid group has been very difficult and tiring to mod as bot behavior went insane in the channel. Agree that the early days when everyone was just riffing on the joke hardest were the most fun. As far as dudes comment that /paidgroup wouldn't exist if not for "house money" then group remained active through s4 which was much lower emissions. Personally I'm not topping off my lock bc my goal isn't to farm. -1

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karbon 🐺🦊🧾 pfp

karbon 🐺🦊🧾

I think it's silly how much time is being spent discussing what is good behavior and what is a good post and a bad post. There should be easier ways to determine who the bots and farmers are and just exclude them. They are. And I understand a lot of fc doesn't like me or my channel but that's a gatekeeping issue imo. Very serious ppl who are made shitposters show up and shitpost. Silly. So much brainpower expended on trying to determine what's bad content. -2

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karbon 🐺🦊🧾 pfp

karbon 🐺🦊🧾

I personally think there's a lot of data already available (openrank, bd, social graph, etc) Hope to see degen return to their roots where allowance is tied to posting and relationships vs just staking which is boring and not really a game I'm trying to play. I just show up still to make sure my employees are paid, they have families and bills and pay stubs to prove they deserve to be paid. But yea there's a wider site issue, bots are a serious problem -3

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karbon 🐺🦊🧾 pfp

karbon 🐺🦊🧾

So I just personally find it silly people sit here and debate "is the /paidgroup bad?" When there are tons of bots and rings of farmers with maxed out allowances tipping each other. -fin

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Pichi pfp

The bots are already on notice and it’s hilarious to watch them pivot. But it brings up an interesting point and I had to bring you into the conversation because I don’t want people throwing shade. I think we have to talk about tip4tip and 401k matching and all these other mechanisms as a community. Is that really what tips are for? Is this really the meta we want? I joined /paidgroup because it was fun and I liked seeing people get rewarded for minting. It was like a little bounty bonus for supporting creators. I think the channel grew and some people are abusing the spirit and don’t know the history so are flinging mud where it doesn’t belong.

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JR ↑ pfp

I’ve been pretty negatively biased against the different paid groups & I’m happy to see your takes - coming from a very different place - and constructively talking about it. As said in another post, I think it’s cool people are having fun, coming here daily to engage, reply and do some random tipping. However, it looks like the effort is going down and almost everyone is just posting an allocation pic, a quick gm etc to collect a tip. Fun replies, good shitposts, NFTs etc., essentially effort & good content is missing completely as of now and I think we should strive towards elevating more good content, fun content, creators putting in some work :) Ps: If people tipped each other real $degen that would be mind-blowing but I don’t see it happening..

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Jon Commstark pfp

^^ I disagree with this final post we already have people tipping real money via tn100x I tip ppl 🍖 in /lp who post all sorts of content. I have low standards for tipping. I tip a mix of free money with the risk of tipping my own bag and my own bag was bought with wBTC we can’t define what is subjective (quality posts) we use money to determine what has value (via tips) let ppl post and tip as they like … if you believe in a free open system then the biggest tips will go to the best content, in the long run

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