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Dan Romero
@dwr.eth
̶w̶a̶l̶k̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶t̶a̶l̶k̶ hike and mic
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Jon Commstark
@commstark
Critique: if we agree to draw a parallel then we should consider that America is the Byzantine Empire and the British is the Roman Empire That is, there was essentially a schism between having a king and self governing, but other than that all institutions fundamentally were the same. In 1,000 years will people be able to see such a drastic difference between 18th century America and England? Religion: same Moral beliefs: same Capital system: same Legal framework: same Language: same Governance system: change (tho England did have a House of Commons by 1775) Why bother pointing this out? When ppl say that we’re a late stage empire they usually are referring to Americas global dominance waning , they aren’t expecting a full collapse of America that leads us into a dark ages. Evidence of this: Americans will often also draw parallels to the Spanish or Dutch Empires which were less a Roman style collapse and more a quick global power and wealth changeover Conclusion: I think you’re focusing on the wrong outcome of the statement “America is like the late Roman Empire”, change the statement to “America is like the late Spanish Empire” and you’ll get a more exact understanding of what people are describing.
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Dan Romero
@dwr.eth
> Conclusion: I think you’re focusing on the wrong outcome of the statement “America is like the late Roman Empire”, change the statement to “America is like the late Spanish Empire” and you’ll get a more exact understanding of what people are describing. Why did the Spanish Empire fall in your opinion?
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Jon Commstark
@commstark
War, internal strife (Spanish succession), and finances (overspending, inflation, tax loss from colony loss)
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Dan Romero
@dwr.eth
How is that applicable to the US situation in 2025?
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Jon Commstark
@commstark
Two parts: 1) the US has 3/3. Finance (major debt issue), internal strife (not a civil war but state power is challenging federal power [texas border, NY sanctuary city]), and war (or at least we Americans perceive that we have an inability to be in a state of pure peace) 2) Why do I say switch Roman Empire for Spanish Empire? People don’t compare the US to the Roman Empire because they think we’ll fall like the Roman Empire. They compare us to the Roman Empire because of how the Roman Empire lost its global dominance. The Roman Empire is the most famous Empire, so it’s a placeholder name for most conversation. Really what people are saying is “all empires lose their global status because of 3 issues: finance, internal strife, war/land loss. America is in a similar situation” Or “we’re just like every other Empire and will soon lose its global dominant position”. What comes after the power change or if half of America still exists after the power change has less consensus. Perhaps we’ll be like the Roman Empire and the Blue states will fall while the Red states become the Byzantine of the US. Maybe we’ll be conquered like the Persians. But either way, the power change is coming.
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Dan Romero
@dwr.eth
> the US has 3/3. This feels like a bunch of high-level claims. The details don't support it. We don't have an economy built on resource extraction (silver) from colonies (Spanish Empire). We aren't fighting any major wars. We have no military peers (Spain was fighting actual peers, minimal technological advantage). Most modern military spending has a domestic economic impact. We also have two massive oceans preventing actual foreign conflict from impacting our homeland. Our internal strife is mainly online. Compare to the late 60s / early 70s when there were actual political *bombings* every day for years.
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Jon Commstark
@commstark
Disagree -> The US economy is built on capital borrowing and cheap labor from soft power colonies. If the dollar adoption falls so will the US economy. The debt is so high that any other country, with this many enemies, would suffer a currency collapse or serious devaluation That type of inflation would fuel the internal strife we see in other empire power changes. -> We were in a major war three years ago. The afghasnitan war cost $500B a year. -> It also doesn’t need to be a home war - Spain lost considerable power in the eighty years war and the Franco-Spanish war which were fought (mostly) outside of Spain (fought in its colonies). -> The idea with war in this argument is: its expense leads to financial collapse OR losing leads to territory collapse which leads to financial collapse. You’re correct that America is different in that the odds of a war happening on our soil is extremely rare and that we are not fighting traditional wars. But that’s just a fact of the times it doesn’t make America immune to the actions and outcomes of those wars.
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