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Dan Romero
@dwr.eth
̶w̶a̶l̶k̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶t̶a̶l̶k̶ hike and mic
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Jon Commstark
@commstark
Critique: if we agree to draw a parallel then we should consider that America is the Byzantine Empire and the British is the Roman Empire That is, there was essentially a schism between having a king and self governing, but other than that all institutions fundamentally were the same. In 1,000 years will people be able to see such a drastic difference between 18th century America and England? Religion: same Moral beliefs: same Capital system: same Legal framework: same Language: same Governance system: change (tho England did have a House of Commons by 1775) Why bother pointing this out? When ppl say that we’re a late stage empire they usually are referring to Americas global dominance waning , they aren’t expecting a full collapse of America that leads us into a dark ages. Evidence of this: Americans will often also draw parallels to the Spanish or Dutch Empires which were less a Roman style collapse and more a quick global power and wealth changeover Conclusion: I think you’re focusing on the wrong outcome of the statement “America is like the late Roman Empire”, change the statement to “America is like the late Spanish Empire” and you’ll get a more exact understanding of what people are describing.
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Dan Romero
@dwr.eth
> Conclusion: I think you’re focusing on the wrong outcome of the statement “America is like the late Roman Empire”, change the statement to “America is like the late Spanish Empire” and you’ll get a more exact understanding of what people are describing. Why did the Spanish Empire fall in your opinion?
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Jon Commstark
@commstark
War, internal strife (Spanish succession), and finances (overspending, inflation, tax loss from colony loss)
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Dan Romero
@dwr.eth
How is that applicable to the US situation in 2025?
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Jon Commstark
@commstark
Two parts: 1) the US has 3/3. Finance (major debt issue), internal strife (not a civil war but state power is challenging federal power [texas border, NY sanctuary city]), and war (or at least we Americans perceive that we have an inability to be in a state of pure peace) 2) Why do I say switch Roman Empire for Spanish Empire? People don’t compare the US to the Roman Empire because they think we’ll fall like the Roman Empire. They compare us to the Roman Empire because of how the Roman Empire lost its global dominance. The Roman Empire is the most famous Empire, so it’s a placeholder name for most conversation. Really what people are saying is “all empires lose their global status because of 3 issues: finance, internal strife, war/land loss. America is in a similar situation” Or “we’re just like every other Empire and will soon lose its global dominant position”. What comes after the power change or if half of America still exists after the power change has less consensus. Perhaps we’ll be like the Roman Empire and the Blue states will fall while the Red states become the Byzantine of the US. Maybe we’ll be conquered like the Persians. But either way, the power change is coming.
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Dan Romero
@dwr.eth
> how the Roman Empire lost its global dominance. The Roman Empire is the most famous Empire, so it’s a placeholder name for most conversation. Really what people are saying is “all empires lose their global status because of 3 issues: finance, internal strife, war/land loss. America is in a similar situation” First, Roman Empire did not have global dominance. Han China was equal, yet totally disconnect (modulo some minor indirect trade). Also Persia was a peer border conflict for centuries. Just because the US isn't running the Pax Americana Bretton Woods playbook, doesn't mean its losing global relevance. The US can insert itself into any issue relevant to its interests fairly quickly. Look at recent impact in Ukraine and Iran.
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Jon Commstark
@commstark
Well it’s 2,000 years later it’s not going to be exactly the same. Roman was the global dominant Empire if you lived in the western world. But is that even what we’re discussing? I thought we’re discussing: “people are wrong for comparing America to Rome because Rome didn’t actually fall” and my response is “you have a misunderstanding of what people are saying. They people aren’t comparing us to Rome because Rome collapsed and created the dark ages, they’re comparing us to Rome because their dominance fell (global or half global)”
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